value on earth..
over the thanksgiving weekend, i had a faith shifting conversation with my wiser and older brother aisea.. we were listening to a song called "fellowship" by meshell ndegeocello that has really expanded my views on living righteously.. the lyrics that caught my attention read..
would you walk
a righteous path
without the promise
of heaven,
paradise
streets paved in gold?
would you slay
your sister,
your brotherman
for another man's greed?
'cause if you believe that your god
is better than another man
how we gonna end
all your suffering?
'cause if you believe that your god
is better than another woman
how we gonna end
all your suffering and strife?
you believe
great god gonna come from the sky
take away everything,
and make everybody feel high
but if you know what life is worth
you'll look for your's here on earth
our conversation revolved around the question of whether we would still desire to live righteously if at this very second, heaven and all of its luxuries no longer existed?.. i grew up with the idea that if i was a good person here on earth, i would have a golden crown waiting for me in heaven along with my very own mansion.. i would walk the streets of gold and never feel pain ever again.. whether or not this becomes a reality in heaven, i made the mistake of allowing this idea to become the very reason why i did right or good, my reasoning for obedience, why i tried not to sin.. it was as if, as long as i can behave myself and do what the bible says, I get all of these things..
the question is do we really desire to do good in the world because it is the right thing to do or is it in return for selfish personal gain.. do i follow the teachings of christ because i believe in finding true life to the fullest in it, or do i have alternative motives.. i think that it is easy to focus on a salvation that delivers us to a eternal heavenly place, but we miss the fact that the point of our salvation may not be our future destination but our present situation.. god is right here, right now.. his kingdom is established.. the point of the life of christ is not exclusively his death on the cross for the sins of the world, but inclusively the life that he lived before his death and resurrection.. while we place great significance on atonement, i know i tend to forget that he didnt just set me free in the afterlife, but mainly right now in the present..
i am constantly reminded through my selfishness that there are far more inportant things in life than personal gain.. instead of focusing so much on the great me, i need to love on the great we.. love is not conditioned by selfish gain, but it seeks to serve the loveless.. i hope that i can learn to live not for what i can get, but for what i can give..
+shalom..
over the thanksgiving weekend, i had a faith shifting conversation with my wiser and older brother aisea.. we were listening to a song called "fellowship" by meshell ndegeocello that has really expanded my views on living righteously.. the lyrics that caught my attention read..
would you walk
a righteous path
without the promise
of heaven,
paradise
streets paved in gold?
would you slay
your sister,
your brotherman
for another man's greed?
'cause if you believe that your god
is better than another man
how we gonna end
all your suffering?
'cause if you believe that your god
is better than another woman
how we gonna end
all your suffering and strife?
you believe
great god gonna come from the sky
take away everything,
and make everybody feel high
but if you know what life is worth
you'll look for your's here on earth
our conversation revolved around the question of whether we would still desire to live righteously if at this very second, heaven and all of its luxuries no longer existed?.. i grew up with the idea that if i was a good person here on earth, i would have a golden crown waiting for me in heaven along with my very own mansion.. i would walk the streets of gold and never feel pain ever again.. whether or not this becomes a reality in heaven, i made the mistake of allowing this idea to become the very reason why i did right or good, my reasoning for obedience, why i tried not to sin.. it was as if, as long as i can behave myself and do what the bible says, I get all of these things..
the question is do we really desire to do good in the world because it is the right thing to do or is it in return for selfish personal gain.. do i follow the teachings of christ because i believe in finding true life to the fullest in it, or do i have alternative motives.. i think that it is easy to focus on a salvation that delivers us to a eternal heavenly place, but we miss the fact that the point of our salvation may not be our future destination but our present situation.. god is right here, right now.. his kingdom is established.. the point of the life of christ is not exclusively his death on the cross for the sins of the world, but inclusively the life that he lived before his death and resurrection.. while we place great significance on atonement, i know i tend to forget that he didnt just set me free in the afterlife, but mainly right now in the present..
i am constantly reminded through my selfishness that there are far more inportant things in life than personal gain.. instead of focusing so much on the great me, i need to love on the great we.. love is not conditioned by selfish gain, but it seeks to serve the loveless.. i hope that i can learn to live not for what i can get, but for what i can give..
+shalom..
10 comments:
vaka... we miss you guys so much. hopefully things are going well for y'all. we'll call soon. love you.
Perhaps that's a part of the reason God made salvation a matter of Grace and not works? It's not a dangling carrot (not to make light of heaven) that makes us do "good" works.
Vaka, this is an interesting topic of discussion so I hope you don't mind me adding some paragraphs to continue it.
1) We need define "selfish" and/or "Selfishness."
2) Our definition of the terms should state whether "Selfishness" is inherently wrong, immoral or evil.
There are those that believe man is ultimately selfish. They would argue that if you follow the chain of volitional acts back far enough, you'll certinaly find even the most altruistic of our actions, and intents to be in some way about us, namely how they make us feel.
Case in point, a man has decided that he truly desires to be a moral person. He believes it a moral act to help another person in need. If so, helping another person would be consistent with this man's elected lifestlye and belief system, therefore he would experience a form of positive feedback within himself, suffice it to say a "good feeling," whatever the degree.
In contrast, denying help to someone in need would make this person feel something quite different. Again assuming this person truly desires to be a moral person and believes it moral to help another, while immoral to not. Shall we call this guilt?
Perhaps, to pursue God's laws, his purpose and his Kingdom, his Son (and I mean truly) are intrinsically Good things, according to the Creator of all things.
And God provided within each of us certain emotional experiences, positive and negative reinforcement mechanisms as indicators of what is right and wrong, or what is Good and contrary to good...(this would be scripturally consistent).
Furthermore, if God put desires within each of us- we could safely assume those would be by definition intrinsically Good desires. (If of course God is intrinsically Good and He cannot be tempted by evil- see book of James).
i.e. My desire to dwell with Him in heaven for eternity.
Perhaps this is an innately Good desire.
Selfish or not selfish, depends again a great deal on how we define the term.
If you define it to include a necessarily link to evil, then I would say we must come up with another word for Godly self interest, (the desire for Godly things even if they are regarding our own destiny).
Whereas, if our definition does not make "selfishness" necessarily evil, one could hypothetically do good acts because to help others provides pleasant experiences for oneself and still be morally consistent... some initial thoughts.
joe..
dude i think i would definitely have to agree with all that youre saying.. i am more so making the distinction between doing good because i love god and doing good because i have something to gain.. there is a difference.. i should know cause ive been guilty of it in the past..
i use to ask myself, "if god wants us to reach the poor in the world, what do we do about the rich?" when i think about evangelism in the world, you dont really hear about ministries going into hollywood, entertainment, fortune 500, etc.. my point is not whether they are being ministered to but the fact that it is easy to look at those who have plenty in this world and have the attitude hidden deep in your heart saying, "well, you can keep your riches on earth, cause when my savior comes im gonna have my riches in heaven and youll be forever lost in darkness"..
as crazy as it sounds, i know ive felt this way before.. mainly due to envy, selfishness, greed, coveting.. i most definitely dont believe that this is of god but my sinful nature.. the problem with it then becomes that it doesnt just stay in my lack of concern for those who have plenty, but it filters into the way i treat those who have none.. does that make sense?
dude, i appreciate your comment.. im glad you are conversating..
i am more so making the distinction between doing good because i love god and doing good because i have something to gain.. there is a difference...
I agree. I relate to what you've said all too well.
I think what I had set out to do was simply add to the idea...a thought: namely, that doing good for the sake of "personal gain" is not always wrong although it can so easily be.
What makes all the difference in the world (and the eternal cosmos) is actually our definition of "personal gain." Whether we allow God to define what is Good personal gain, v. the alternative (which we often get so caught up in).
p.s. I like what you said about reaching the materially wealthy, great thought friend. :)
"What makes all the difference in the world (and the eternal cosmos) is actually our definition of "personal gain." Whether we allow God to define what is Good personal gain..."
when paul talks about us being conformed to the image of christ, we are constantly in the process of becoming christ in us.. the more we grow and mature in our faith, the more our hearts begin to be like christ, that the things he would be excited about excite us.. and the things that would pierce his heart pierce our own..
psalms37:4 says "Delight yourself in the LORD and he will give you the desires of your heart."
i think that if we are truely conforming to the image of christ, and his heart has become our own, then god will meet the desires of our heart because they are not of our own personal selfish nature, but the nature that cares and wants what god wants for our lives..
all this to say, when you say good personal gain, im reminded of when in my life i see gain, but not for the sake of myself personally, but for the greater gain of christ in me, together.. maybe instead of "personal" it can be good "persons" gain.. i dont know, now im just making stuff up.. god is so good though.. real good..
Vaka-
This is Sam, Josh and Anthony's old roommate. I was checking out your blog and noticed you have Trevor and Kevin on your blog roll. I go to onePlace, so Kev is my pastor, and I play fantasy football with Trevor. Crazy small world man. Come over and check my blog sometime. Good to find you this way. Hope all is well!
Maybe this is what you and Joe are saying but I do think there are people who do not believe in Heaven and still are very good, moral people because they choose to be. They may even say that they do it for no other reason other than the goodness of their hearts but as the great "Friends" poses..."is there any selfless good deed?" I'm sure that's what you or Joe means by the good feeling a person gets when doing something good. Either way I definitely think it's possible to be good and not know Heaven...just requires frequent checks of motives.
hey katie..
its good to hear from you.. im glad youre conversating.. i think that it is very possible to do good and not know heaven, god, grace.. i try to live my life by the principle of being more concerned with the plank in my own eye FIRST, then being concerned or addressing the speck in my brother's.. most of my blogs, including this one, focus more on the believer first.. so im addressing christians or myself when i live my life in personal gain instead of for god's purpose in my life..
your comment reminds me of thoughts ive been struggling with.. like, can a person go to heaven and not KNOW jesus christ as we do in christianity.. sure we all know jesus as the way, truth, and life but what about those who have never seen the bible?.. are they hell-bound because god didnt love them enough to get his scriptures to them?.. or is it possible that to know christ is to know his attributes and character and live by them..
like, though a person may never see a bible, if their life reflects the teachings of christ, (love they neighbor, lives by the charactistics of love in 1 corinthians 13:4-7, tends to the hungry and widows, etc..) is it possible that we may see such a person(s) in heaven?.. now im not quick to say yes but i am most definitely not going to say no.. its something worth wrestling with..
also, i think that it may be possible to act selflessly.. i guess i refer more to when i do good for the sake of god's will in my life, it is not for my glory but for his kingdom.. thats just my take but who am i anyway?..
lastly, i was never really into "friends" but shannon had season 5 and we watched it.. since then we are now on season 9 when we get back home.. im hooked.. anyway, continue seeking truth and please keep the conversations of life going.. peace..
hey Vaka, Happy New year!.
you wrote:
can a person go to heaven and not KNOW jesus christ as we do in christianity.. sure we all know jesus as the way, truth, and life but what about those who have never seen the bible?.. are they hell-bound because god didnt love them enough to get his scriptures to them?.. or is it possible that to know christ is to know his attributes and character and live by them..
like, though a person may never see a bible, if their life reflects the teachings of christ, (love they neighbor, lives by the charactistics of love in 1 corinthians 13:4-7, tends to the hungry and widows, etc..) is it possible that we may see such a person(s) in heaven?.. now im not quick to say yes but i am most definitely not going to say no.. its something worth wrestling with..
C.S. Lewis once made the illustration of a person hiking down a mountain to get to a certain destination below. He said that at certain points this person might appear much closer to the destination than he actually is, as roads down a mountain have many detours and zig-zagging paths... Lewis relates this to the idea that some people may appear by nature more "like" God... but are in actuality far from Him.
To take this further, we know that the bible states clearly that man is intrinsically evil. That no matter how hard we try we fail time and time again. The absolute best of us are still wretched sinners.
Generally, when we discuss "good" people vs. "evil" people we tend to compare one person to another, and this is where the problem arises. We see a certain admirable life style and we name that person "good."
But, we must then ask: "Good" compared to whom?
Half of the population? 90%? maybe only 3% And, "good" compared to Hitler? Or Mother Theresa?
Me thinks this is such crucial point, because it shows you just how arbitrary our concept of justice and "good" actually are.
Of course, the bible compares us to God's righteousness...
Consequently, we all fall short, every last one of us.
The tough answer that I am going to suggest is that apart from Christ, to the best of my knowledge of the bible, salvation is impossible. Otherwise, we begin to preach a gospel based on works.
Having said that it's also important to see what the word declares about finding Christ.
God said people would find him when they searched with all their hearts. (Jeremiah 29:13). Jesus also stated that those on the side of truth listened to him.(Matthew 18:18)
Christ showed up to Paul on the road to Damascus in a vision, God spoke through a burning bush, as a hand writing on a wall and even rebuked a prophet from the mouth of a donkey... and let's not forget the story of Cornelius, the centurion, who was recorded as being a "godly" man without the gospel. God used Peter to bring the good news to he and his family.
I've said all this to say that though I believe one must actually accept Christ as their savior... I would not limit God in what he is able to do, if a person should truly seek to know the truth, regardless of his/her situation. -Joe
Check this out. I think this kinda speaks to what your talking about here.
http://www.myworshiprevolution.com/bobbym/2007/03/christs_body_co.html
Your a blogging inspiration to me!
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